So much has been made of the state of California passing an amendment that effectively bans gay marriage in the state and I know probably no one cares about my two cents on the matter. Since when has a lack of an audience stopped bloggers.
I’ll get this out of the way first: I am a devout Christian and as such I do believe that homosexuality is morally objectionable. At the same time, though, I am strongly against any government passing a law prohibiting the rights of gays. The reason is simple, morality should not be legislated. Government cannot dictate what is and what is not moral. As much as they’d probably like to be, governments are not gods.
Now you may object saying that if government should not legislate moral concerns then how can such obviously wrong things like murder and theft be outlawed. The difference is that these sort of things actually fall under the jurisdiction of government. You see, the role of a government to to be a protectorate of the people. They are protecting people and property by prosecuting those who would do harm to their neighbors.
So what, then, should be done about gay marriage by Christians? Well the first thing that Christians should remember is their Biblical mandate to love and respect all people (including homosexuals) and they would also do well to remember that we are forbidden to judge those outside the fold of the Church:
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
– Matthew 7:1-2What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
– 1 Corinthians 5:12
We tend to forget that marriage was not always under the jurisdiction of the government. There was a time when the institution of marriage was purely the concern of religious communities. The government recognition is more for the purposes of taxes and social benefits than sacred vows. If the Church does not believe that gays should be wed then all that needs to be done is for the Church not to marry them. Beyond that they need give little concern to what the government declares them to be. Furthermore, when you allow governments to overstep their legislative boundaries in such a way the primary consequence is that government is given legal president to dictate matters of faith by force of law. One only needs to look at history to see how this can quickly go awry.
As with any opinion I state on this blog, I could be mistaken. Those are simply the conclusions I have reached so far. How about you?
…morality cannot be legislated.
Morality is legislated. It is against the law to marry 12 wives. It is against the law to be naked in public. It is against the law to….
Those things which you name are not merely matters of morality but of social stablity. Houseing codes, tax codes, protection of children, property rights, etc. All would suffer repercussions from those two examples.
No one would suffer if I had 12 wives but it remains against the law.
Your wives and children would likely suffer (can look to the old testament stories to see numerous examples of that). Besides, did I not argue that marriage from the perspective of government and marriage from the perspective of faith-based communites are two very different things.
Sodom also suffered. You can look at your Bible and see that as well. A nation that accepts this evil as normal is a nation not far from judgement.
Now you’re starting to sound like my ex. All I’m advocating here is personal resposiblity and not relying upon government to dictate what is and isn’t morally acceptable. As far as judgement goes, leave that to God and don’t pretend to be equal to Him by doing it yourself.
If I am not to say anything about homosexual marriage, should I also be silent when they start to make prostitution legal? And when they decide that it is no longer wrong to go topless at the beach, am I to keep silent then also? And when they say that it is wrong to share the gospel, do I just keep silent? Where does it end?
And what about the real possibility that gay people will want my pastor to marry them in our church? Do we just keep silent and go with the flow?
I’ve reached exactly the same conclusion as you, after much thought, and after previously supporting a similar measure here in Oregon.
@Russ, yes, morality is legislated sometimes, but it should not be. Like Tylor said, laws should serve to protect members of society and preserve order, not dictate behavior.
Now, inside the church is a whole ‘nother story. Obviously I don’t want my pastor marrying homosexuals. Not that we should shun them or avoid them, but we wouldn’t bless such a union. We should share Jesus’ love with them (we’re ALL sinners remember), and as they devote their lives to him the sinful behavior will fall away. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have disappeared, and-look!-all things have become new!”
Russ, that’s enough. If you continue with the venomous attacks your going to get yourself banned. I opened this up to reasonable and respectful discussion but what your yelling isn’t going to help anyone (especially since you didn’t even seem to read the whole post).
Greg, thanks for the input. I appreciate it and hope to hear more from you.
Hmm, Russ comments are what make’s me so scared of Christian people – so much judgement, not enough open-minded love.
God is not a hate-monger; it’s the followers who judge and think they are the voice of God that bring so much hate.
If a man chooses to love a man, and a woman a woman – then good luck to them, if they feel happy and fulfilled and have love in their life then who am I or anyone else in this world to pass judgement. I have no such qualms, and never will.
Judging people is so easy, accepting people that are different than you is the hard bit.
Just my honest opinion.
Tylor – I am so grateful you’re not like that, you taught me that no everybody is out to judge and banish those of us who don’t quite make the grade!
Thank you so much for your comments on my blog, you always make me feel better about things.
I have not said anything hateful. If I have, I will gladly apologize. I do not hate homosexuals. I do not consider myself better than them at all. I am a sinner and they are sinners. We are all sinners and their sin is no worse then mine. If I am guilty of “venomous attacks” I gladly apologize but if I just have a different opinion then yours, it is unfair to label as me hateful.
If it is wrong to legislate morality then the conversation is over. You win. So, is it wrong to legislate morality? Let me propose a scenario.
Lets say that a bill comes up that would allow prostitution in your area. Maybe prostitution is already legal in your area. You decide that it is wrong to legislate morality so you vote to pass the bill and make it legal. The bill passes and as a result, your neighbor down the street becomes know as the local prostitute. She is a nice girl just trying to make a living and runs a quite and “respectable” business.
Some years later your 17 year old son and a few of his buddies have nothing to do on a Saturday night while you are out of town and because they are 17 and there hormones are at there peak, they pool their money and visit this woman. If the nearest available prostitute had been hundreds of miles away they most likely would not have fallen into this situation but because she lives on the same street, the temptation is too great and they cannot stop themselves.
Later it is learned that one of the boys now has a serious venereal disease. Maybe it is AIDS or maybe is something else but it will affect him for the rest of his life.
How is that the loving thing to do for your child? As parents, are we not to protect our children from the things in this world that can injure them? Even if your son does not get physically sick, the emotional and spiritual results of legalizing sex for money will affect their future and their marriages for their entire lives.
Is it wrong to legislate morality?
Righteousness exalts a nation, But sin is a reproach to any people. [Pro 14:34]
Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.”
I accept your apology. I’m sorry; I was a little hasty and harsh with my response. I have encountered a lot of prejudice and hateful people in my time that have justified their actions under the banner of Christianity but I was wrong to group you under that category. I can see know that you have thought out reasons behind your position. So let’s get this conversation back on a good track.
I will grant you that I would not ever vote to legalize something like prostitution and if I am honest with myself part of the reason would be because I believe it to be morally wrong. It also has social and societal ramifications as well. The main reason that it is illegal in the U.S. is because of its close association with organized crime. Most people who end up in prostitution are forced into it by poverty and/or exploitation by others (two things we, as Christians, should actively combat). This doesn’t account for the occasional person who freely chooses the life but that is something to be addressed on a personal moral level directly with that person (kind of like Jesus did with the prostitutes he encountered).
As far as the hypothetical of the child being tempted, that is also something to be address on a personal level. For everyone temptation will greet us each and every day of our lives and no law is going to neither stop that nor will a law stop us from falling to it (the best it can do is deter us for a while). That being the case, the responsibility then falls on the parent and the child himself for the actions taken. It is the parent’s responsibility to instruct the child as to the moral way to act so that they will do so even in the parent’s absence. Likewise, the child is responsible for the actions they take. Legal or not, they should know right from wrong and are responsible to that.
Great! I appreciate your willingness to continue this dialog.
We agree then that there are times when it is right to attempt to legislate morality. I don’t think that any of us are deluded enough to think that prostitution or any other crime does not exist just because there is legislation against it. However, it is significantly reduced and forced “off the streets” so to speak.
So the question is should we as Christians also attempt to slow the advance of homosexuality in our society through legislation? Again, prop 8 does not stop homosexuals to from doing what they do. It is simply a message that homosexuality is still wrong, regardless of how many practice it or support it. It defines marriage the way that God defines marriage.
I hate to use the cliché WWJD but what would Jesus do? If Jesus were voting on prop 8, would He vote to re-define marriage to include homosexual couples? You might convince me that He would not vote in the first place but I don’t think that He would vote NO on 8.
The church has a message for this world. The message is that Jesus can save you from your sin. He can rescue you from punishment and instead you can have eternal life. We go on to explain to this world that the world is condemned because of sin but that Jesus paid the price for our sin on the cross and that by the grace of God we can be saved.
If we preach from the pulpit on Sunday that because of our sin the wrath of God will be revealed from heaven, [Rom 1:18] how can we then vote exactly opposite to our beliefs on Tuesday? If we do so, we send a mixed message to this lost world that desperately needs God’s forgiveness.
In addition, what about our brothers and sisters who might struggle with this weakness? They have repented of their homosexuality and are trying to follow Jesus in obedience and then they learn that half of the church voted to promote homosexual marriage, the very thing they are struggling with. That is not a loving way for me to treat my brother in the Lord.
When God sent the angels to Lot to tell him to get out of Sodom and Gomorrah before the wrath of God fell, the people laughed at him. His witness to the city was so weak that they did not take him seriously.
The church must send a consistent message to this world and to our own brothers and sisters in the Lord.
I think the more likely outcome of the WWJD sinario is that he wouldn’t have voted at all. Really, the only precident we have concerning Jesus and government politics is the much quoted “render unto ceaser what is ceaser’s” From my own studies, at least, it seems that the running possition of the New Testament is that governments are going to do whatever they want to do and we need not worry about it because we know who is really in charge. Unfortunatly, I can’t say it is so black and white because I would not think it wrong to advocate social change in governments to help those in need.
I guess what I am wanting to do is look at this particular case very specifically. As such there are a lot of things we have to take into concideration. First of all, the United States is a country that has its foundations in the ideals of freedom. Religious freedom is a big part of that. While it may be possible, it is very difficult to make a convincing argument against gay marriage without bringing religous belief into the equation. Does that make the act morally correct? No, but it does suggest that passing such a law would directly undermine the separation of Church and State that has protected the church from excessive government interferance throughout the countries history.
Furthermore, whether Christians intend it to or not, passing such a law sends a very strong message to the gay community. In the context of a country that values equality of rights for all people passing such a law would comunicate the message that this particular group of people is less worthy than the rest. In the eyes of a homosexual it would bear a striking resemblance to the Jim Crow laws that oppressed the Black communities through the 1960’s. We Christians may not intend that message but it is still what is communicated. I don’t think we really want to do that.
In the end, I think I would prefer to see Christians do things like Jesus did. We should at all times practice what we preach but we should follow Christ’s example in doing it. Christ’s advocacy was in the streets, among the powerless. He stayed about as far away as you can get from political sway and convincing governments to do his will. (In fact, it could easily be argued that the decline of the spiritual power of the Church began when Constantine Christianized the government.)
We should practice and affirm our beliefs concerning homosexuality but we should do it in the most loving and directly relational way possible towards those whom we could seek to save. Conversely, we should avoid doing so impersonally and indirectly though the iron fist of legeslative rule. I think that really is what Jesus would do.
Hi Tylor…et al…
I just wanted to say that I find this to be a facinating discussion. I don’t normally comment on anything political or religious but I find myself wanting to offer my two cents.
First of all, nobody *choses* to be gay. They just are.
Can you imagine chosing to go into a life of being hated and shunned by everyone from your own family to complete strangers? It would be like telling the two of you that you have to find another another man to love whether you wanted to or not. Either that, you simply are not entitled to romantic love. Something I don’t think you would be inclined to do. It simply isn’t a choice for homosexual people. (The stereotype flamboyant behavior is a completely different subject)
Personally, I’d much rather see a happy stable marriage of two gay people instead of two straight people that have been married and divorced numerous times dragging hapless children around behind them. There is no sanctity in that type of union.
I also happen to be for legalized prostitiution and pro-choice. These things are going to happen, no matter what the law says. I’d prefer that they happened in a clean, safe and regulated place instead of some dark alley.
As far as them affecting my children, it’s MY job, not the goverment’s to teach them that these are choices that they shouldn’t be making.
As for Jesus, doesn’t he teach free will? Wouldn’t he be busy raising funds and caring for the poor and homeless. Wouldn’t he be more concerned with making our world a better place and teaching forgiveness instead of trying to *force* others to believe as he did?
I have very high…perhaps even prudish standards…but they are MY morals and I don’t expect everyone else to be like me. It’s not my place to judge others, only to accept them.
That’s what I believe Jesus would do.
Thanks for your comment Susan. Haven’t heard from you in a while so it was a nice surprise.
I would have to agree with you on the nature of homosexuality. From my own experiences working and studying along side homosexuals and hearing their stories (even Christians who find themselves in that category) I’ve come to believe that being gay isn’t a choice but something that some people are. Does that make the practice right? Well, right now I’m inclined to say no but I’m still working on the reasoning.
One thing I do believe firmly, though, is that all LGBT people are entitled to the exact same rights and privileges as the rest of us. I also agree with you, Susan, about how it’s our responsibility to make those choices, not the government’s. Take the abortion issue for example. That is something I strongly believe to be wrong. So what real world effect does that belief have? Well it means I sure as hell ain’t going to aid or suggest to anyone to have one (even if the law were to mandate them). I don’t need a law to tell me to believe that.
On a tangent, that is one complaint that can easily be leveled against Christians. We do all this yelling about abortion but we offer no alternatives or solutions. If you want abortions to stop then offer to adopt the unwanted babies into your own families. It’s what we like to call costly love–that we would not only point out wrongs but make sacrifices ourselves to make them right.
Thank you again, Susan. Hope to hear your comments more often.
Homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible just like lying is a sin or fornication is a sin. To ask me to vote NO on 8 is to ask me to promote sin in our country. How can I preach on Sunday that sin, any sin, is wrong and then on Tuesday vote to promote the acceptance of something that the Bible clearly defines as sin? Maybe you can somehow justify this behavior but I cannot.
My faith must guide my actions or my faith is not faith at all. For the church to vote to promote homosexuality is to send the message to the world that the church believes that homosexuality is acceptable to God. It sends the message to our brothers and sister in the church that struggle with this sin that they need no longer fight against this behavior but instead just be faithful to one person and God will overlook it. This is not the message of the New Testament to this world.
The message of the Bible to this lost would is that no homosexual will enter the kingdom of heaven just as no fornicator will enter nor any liar will enter God’s kingdom. We all lie and we all fornicate, at least in our minds, but that does not mean that I would then vote to make fornication more accessible or lying more prevalent in our society. We must fight these things and repent of them, not give into them.
However, I do not believe that this issue will be around for long. I believe that the courts in this county will strike down laws that prohibit this but they will do so because the church has lost its flavor and now agrees with the world instead of standing on truth of God’s word. The church has lost the battle against the murdering of innocent children and the church, unless God intervenes, will become like Lot living in Sodom and will be overcome by the sin in the world instead of overcoming the world with the truth. We are like the salt that has lost its flavor and now is good for nothing except to be, “…thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.”
It seems we have inherantly different ideas of how a Christian goes about being salt and light to the world. We could spend our time passing one law after another but, like you said, they wouldn’t last long. How about, instead, we spend our time and energy going out and showing that salty love to everyone we meet. You’ll never have to comprimise what you believe to do this. Take this comment string for example. We all have very differnt points fo view on here but we are being respectful to each other and willingly listening to what each has to say. Why is that? It’s because we are doing it in good faith and not trying to force anything on anyone.
reading this discussion I find it very intersting and offending and also narrowminded but I also respect that some people stand up for their beliefs.
One wuestion that pops in to my head over and over again is; Why do peopl refer to God as a punisher so many times?
being gay, being straight -love is love. It’s a disgrace that we judge love, because passing judgment on a gay realtionship, even if you want to believe it or not, is judging LOVE. Who are we or any religon to say that they choose to be gay, they are sinners?
I agree with Tylor that we are not God.
I repsect religions and I myself believe in God. But the God I believe doesn’t judge anyone -gay, non gay, woman done an abortion etc. Because face it then we’d all be fucked.
I have a friend that got raped at the age of 13 and the man that raped her didn’t use a condom and she got pregnant. Do you think that in a situation like that a woan does not have the right to abort this child? say what you want about aborton being a murder and the child ha snothing to do with the raping but it still happened. it still ruined her life and if we humans are passing judgment on women doing abortions, then how are we better than the person judging us?
for the recor she miscarriaged but if she had chosen aborton that would have been Her choice.
That’s what I think anyways..
Tylor,
We do not have different ideas about how to be salt and light. We are light and salt when we bring the love of Christ to others. I don’t attempt to be salt by legislating morality and neither do you.
However, a few weeks ago I found myself in a voting booth. There was a ballot in front of me and they were asking me to vote on a bill that would promote and support gay marriage if I vote NO or that would attempt to slow and discourage gay marriage if I vote YES.
Even though I normally don’t attempt to influence others through legislation here I am forced to make a decision on this issue. Now I could just skip the proposition and not vote on it at all but then what am I doing in the booth if I am not going to vote? You all voted, right? So that option is off the table.
So then, how am I going to vote? Well, if I vote NO I am promoting something that the Bible clearly says is sin. Is the Bible the word of God or not? Why is it that we think that we can promote something that is exactly opposite of what God says is pleasing to Him and still think that we are doing the right thing?
When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. [Eze 3:18]
The Bible says that no homosexual will enter the kingdom of heaven yet the church, by voting no on 8, is failing to warn them. By voting NO on 8 the church is sending a mixed message to a lost world.
Since I currently live in Wisconsin I didn’t really have the oppertunity to be faced with such a decision. However, I still beleive I would have voted against it as a Christian, not because I think homosexuality is alright (I don’t) but because I believe that it is wrong to give unequal treatment to different groups of people. I just don’t see the reasoning in equating the opposition to an unjust law to support of homosexual practice.
Taylor,
You have already agreed that you would vote against prostitution. What is your reasoning for not giving equal treatment to prostitutes?
When we talk about marriage laws we are talking about giving a right to one group and denying it to another. Prostitution is different. It is the same rule for all people without bias.
Taylor,
My right to have sex with whomever I choose regardless of weather I pay for it or not is none of your business and you have right to tell me what I can and cannot do in my own private life. Bug off and mind your own business.
I am obviously speaking facetiously.
Been a long time since I was told to bug off. You’re right, that is your right. I was meerly trying to protect you from the complications of organized crime, common violence towards sex workers and human trafficing.
Tell me a little about your background. I’d like to get a better idea of where you’re coming from.
Tylor,
I am coming from the Bible. The reason that prostitution is wrong is because God says in His word that it is wrong. The reason why homosexuality is wrong is because God says in His word that it is wrong. That is why I voted for prop 8 – because gay marriage is sinful and wrong. Righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a reproach to any people.
Our standard for determining right and wrong as Christians must be the word of God. If it is not the word of God, the church is in anarchy. Anyone’s opinion has no more validity then another’s opinion if there is no standard for morality. You may argue against prostitution but your sister in the Lord, sitting right next to you in church, can argue exactly the opposite and there is no way to resolve the conflict if there is no standard for righteousness in the body of Christ.
If the church knows that homosexuality is wrong and sinful that then votes to promote it in our society, then the church is as lost as the rest of the world.
We’re both coming from the Bible, that’s not what I was asking. The conclusions I’ve come to did not happen without studying the word (though I must admit that I give more president to the New Testament than the Old).
What I was asking was what cultural and personal goggles are you looking at the Bible through. You can’t tell me you don’t have any bias because everyone does. We all bring our own preconceptions and prejudices to the reading of scripture that profoundly affect our understanding. A church cannot survive on the Bible alone because in the end this book is not God. God wants you to have communion with Him, not with a book.
I don’t believe that It matters what background I came from. The question is, is the Bible REALLY God’s word. If it is God word and I have some background that is influencing my understanding of the word, then I need to allow the truth that is in the word to change me. Only the word of God is pure and perfect and the more I know it, the more pure and perfect my understanding of truth becomes.
We both agree that the Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is sin. Can you find anywhere in God’s word where we are encouraged or instructed to promote sin in any way? I can show you many places were we are told to do the opposite.
For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.
Voting NO on 8 is not exposing the “unfruitful works of darkness”. Voting NO on 8 is approving of the “unfruitful works of darkness”.
Do you really believe that the Bible is God’s word? Can you show me one scripture that encourages you to approve of or promote sin?
You’re proposing a few leaps in logic when you accuse me of promoting sin. Never once did I suggest such a thing. Instead I am advocating that we denounce sin of another kind. I am proposing that we fight against the sins of prejudice and oppression. What you are advocating with prop. 8 is that we support such wrong things just to avoid looking like we believe homosexuality to be alright. I’m sorry, but that’s not something I can do in good conscience.
Hey, everyone else following this discussion. I think it’s time for you all to chime in again. I want to know what you all think.
From what I can see Tylor is thinking for himself but still staying true to his beliefs. He is not trying to convince anyone of Gods word but is arguing for humanitary rights.
Russ is thinking through the Bible and you are more preaching than anything else. Why do you get so upset and accusing?
gay or non gay, porstitute or not, do they have less right to live and be happy becaus ethe Bible says it is a sin?
if we’re all sinners then how do we define the worst sinners? How do we determine being better or worse?
I don’t understand the reasoning of being against homosexuality. Neither do I undertsnad the reasoning that it is a choice. The prostitute does not wake up one day and think “I’ll go and sleep with men/women for money”. We need to look at Their background before we pass judgment. How else are we different?
Aswell, have anyone ever met a prostitue or a gay person?
I met a prostitute that was sold by he rfather at the age of 9. She did not know anything else neither had any selfworth left in he rbody. For her prostitution wa sall she was taught and thought she deserved. Instead of the Christians banning and preaching on how it is a sin, isn’t the best thing to do -to reach out to them? to say it’s is ok that you fell in this path but there are ways out? To actually help them out of that misery?
Homosexuality is another matter and I know that it is homosexuality we are discussing. Hitler hated Jews, he thought they were (to be bold) sinfull people and didn’t deserve to live.
Christians are saying that homosexuality is a sin, how are You different? You are excluding people that didn’t choose to be homosexual. I know that for Christians this is an offending comparasion but to people outside what the church is doing is equally offending.
I believe that people are born homosexuals, they have just as much dreams and hopes as me that is straight. I belive that Prostitutes do not choose to sell their bodies, that they have merely lost their soul and have nothing left. I believe in God. I believe that God does not punish, the God I know does not exclude anyone that seeks him. Who are you to say that he does becaus eof a book and other peoples interpretations of God? And also, does that make your beliefs purer than mine? No.
What I really don’t understand is how homosexuality has gotten to be such a huge issue. It has always been with us…only kept in the closet.
The Bible is a huge book, full of so much wisdom and really, you have to search to find anything about homosexuality. Even then, it really isn’t clear what the Bible is saying about it. (Look up the aruguments)
I do know that the New Testament is all about a young man that died a painful death to save *everyone* (not just the straight, morally acceptable ones)from their sins.
“Judge not, lest you be judged”
…it really isn’t clear what the Bible is saying about it.
Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. [Rom 1:27]
Marriage is not a human institution. It was established by God, not by man.
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. [Gen 2:24]
To say that limiting marriage to one man and one woman is prejudice is to say that the Bible is wrong when it established marriage in the first place. When the church begins to trust worldly wisdom and is no longer able to hear the truth that is in God’s word, the church is in a very sad state.
To say that something is wrong does not mean that we are judging a person. If that were the case then we could never say that murder or rape is wrong without judging.
Russ, I know you mean well buy you should really stop and put some thought into how your words come across. You see, you could be saying the truth but when you say it in such a way all that is accomplishes is reminding people of big haired TV preachers proclaiming doom on the world. No one likes to listen to that and no one is likely to take it to heart. When that happens it does more good just to keep quiet. Take a breath and consider how you phrase things carefully.
I wasn’t going to keep reading but have been a bit intrigued by this conversation. I can tell things are already a little tense, but I do have one question I’d like to propose.
Earlier, Russ said that if he had 12 wives no one would suffer, and Tylor argued that his children would. I agree that this would likely be the case; but-
Couldn’t you say the same for children that are in the position of having two mothers instead of a father? Or vice versa? That seems just as unhealthy a situation as a husband having several wives because it wasn’t how God intended.
(shrugs)
That argument could be made but I don’t think that would be the most convincing direction to go. The reason for that is that if you start asking that then you have to ask about every household that has parents with something morally questionable in their lives (i.e. just about everyone, you and me included). I think you’re right there, but it’s going to be difficult to argue.
Probably true. It’s just something I’ve been wondering about the whole time.
So what is the difference if the children of my 12 wives suffer a bit?
I will not argue with you concerning my lack of tact. I agree that I could use about 40 years of instruction in effective communication along with another 50 years of instruction on how to love people better. Perhaps after I have completed these, I may become a better blogger. I am 100% guilty of being insensitive in my communication.
I wonder though if you are offended by my lack of tact or if you are offended by the message itself. This is not my message. I didn’t make this stuff up. This is the message that God has placed in His word. Regardless of my bluntness and lack of tact, it remains the same truth.
I wish you wouldn’t blame rudeness on God’s word and at 22 years old I’ve learned respectful dialog fluently so it doesn’t take anywhere near 40 years.
No, I’m not really offended (actually, of all the ‘turn or burn’ preachers I’ve met you’re one of the tamer ones) I just wish you weren’t so dismissive of my arguments which have, believe it or not, come from years of studying and living out God’s word.
And for goodness sake, quit asking far-fetched hypothetical questions and focus on the real world and times we live in.
If you are truly speaking from the authority of God’s word I have no idea which passages of Scripture you are referring to. I asked you to provide one scripture that instructs or encourages believers to promote something that the Bible clearly defines are sin but you did not provide even one.
Russ, you’re not listening. I told you quite directly that I am NOT promoting homosexuality. What I am doing is arguing against discrimination and have made multiple references for that. Don’t be so presumptuous.
You believe that voting to change the definition of marriage to include two men or two women does not promote homosexuality?
We’re arguing in circles now. You think maybe it will be alright to just not agree on this.
“1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:
” ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ “[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.”
– Romans 14